Satoru tosses the book aside carelessly when Felwinter appears to offer other entertainments. It's a book on botany in the local region and he feels like he's dying of boredom. He hates botany. Plants are good for eating (sometimes) and for dating (apparently), but he really has no interest in any other aspect about them. But he does want to be better at foraging, and he does generally just like learning stuff. He just doesn't like learning botany. Impressing Choso with plant knowledge is just absolutely never going to work out for him.
Brightening as he's offered cake, Satoru accepts the plate happily, shifting to sit cross-legged so that he can sit forward and pay attention while he eats. The Kelesian tea is better, though it's still terrible, and Satoru comments as much. He never thought of himself as having strong opinions on tea, but that was because he comes from a tea-growing country. Most of the time he could just count on having access to good tea, wherever he went. Karterian tea is horrible.
Fel's question is an interesting one, and Satoru makes a thoughtful noise as he considers it. He sets down his plate for a moment, lost in thought, and starts to cross his arms--but only one arm goes across. The other hand reaches up for his own throat, some kind of subconscious motion, maybe self-soothing. His hand tightens--squeezes hard--and then he realizes what he's doing and drops both hands immediately back into his lap.
"Hm. Interesting question. A significant portion of it is a matter of definition. Different cultures define that in different ways. The ancient Greeks--do you know Greek? Do you know English? Never mind. Irrelevant. The word ... spiros, I think? The root part of it is spir, anyway, and it shows up in a huge amount of English words." Satoru being a Greek nerd who speaks English. "Spirit, aspire, inspire--it means breath. This is the case for a lot of--especially ancient--cultures. The soul is the breath, and the soul left the body with the final exhale."
He leans forward, raps a knuckle against Fel's breathless chest, willing to bet that this is the actual root of his boyfriend's question.
"By which definition, babe, sorry, you're out. But." He lifts a finger. This lecture is far from over. "There's a concept in Japanese philosophy which is called shin-jin ichinyo, literally meaning 'mind and body as one.' Instead of the dualism of Western philosophy, where consciousness is seen as something separate from the body, shin-jin ichinyo posits that the soul is the body, and the body is the soul. Your thoughts, feelings, and identity exist not just in the mind or heart, but throughout your body. The body shapes the soul as much as the soul shapes the body."
Sorry if you didn't want the entire lecture, Fel, because you're getting it. "Shortly before coming here, I encountered two curses with relevant abilities. One of them--and this one I got the explanation second-hand from my student--posited that the soul existed before the body and the body was formed according to the ... blueprint, I suppose, of the soul. So that this curse could manipulate the shape of the body by warping the victim's soul. However, the other curse had an ability that seemed to conflict with that, wherein the memories, emotions, abilities and instincts of the body remained within the body even after the curse had removed the brain, implying--as with shin-jin ichinyo--that the soul was infused throughout the body.
"But I really wanted to slaughter both of them, they were assholes, so let's not dwell on them too much." Satoru wrinkles his nose, but he finally takes enough of a breath to reach for his tea, though he doesn't yet resume drinking it. He thinks back to what Fel had told him--human brains were installed in 'Exo' bodies, but also that Exos had no organic parts. It was not the physical brain inside the metal chassis. "What I think is most relevant in our current circumstance is the question of the immortal soul, which is generally the aspect of a person which passes to the afterlife while the mortal body is left behind. In Buddhism, this is the part which reincarnates into a new body and a new existence, but is still considered to be the same person, and who often will recognize, resonate with, and share threads of fate with other souls who it has encountered in previous lives.
"Given that I strongly theorize--as previously discussed--that the Augmented are all dead and this may very well be an afterlife, then," he points a finger back and forth between Fel and himself. "We are our souls. I am much more confident in the belief that my soul exists here in this place than I am in my belief that this is my original body that was transferred here. Which would also explain the loss of so many of my powers, but that's a different topic. Would you agree with that premise? How confident are you that you are the Felwinter who died in that battle, and, separately, how confident are you that that is the same body--chassis?--that was damaged in that battle? My opinion and belief is that the very fact that you are here is proof that you have just as much of a soul as I do."
He should have known an answer from Gojo would be less than concise, but it's still... a lot. And none of it feels like it applies to him. He stares down at his tea with his eyes narrowed into lines, thinking over it all. Debating how to answer the questions.
"When a Lightbearer dies, our Ghost recreates our body from scratch. You can't heal a body which has been crushed or incinerated or disintegrated," he shakes his head slowly. "Sometimes my Ghost found it easier to start over even with lesser wounds. Exos are... complex. Difficult to fix. So she'd have me shoot myself. I've died more times than I can count. We had to be dead in order to become Lightbearers at all.
"But I don't remember dying before I came here. Not in the way you mean. Not my Final Death. If my Ghost were dead, my Light would be gone, and as long as my Ghost is alive..."
She could, theoretically, bring him back again. Even if it was only to a situation from which there was no escape. A death he knows is coming whether it has already or not. None of them were walking out of that bunker alive.
"To answer your question: Whether this is the same body or not means very little for me."
It's also not really the point, but that's... Well, he's not entirely sure how to bring it up.
Edited (repeated word also tenses) 2025-07-14 21:27 (UTC)
Satoru looks startled right from the start of this, at the thought of bodies being reconstructed from being disintegrated, and he gives a little twitch at the prospect of Fel having to execute his own body for that purpose. He's a little surprised at himself for the squeamishness, but Satoru's sensitivity to body horror has risen significantly after his encounter with Mahito's creations and his very personal experiences with being a human experiment here.
He sets his cake aside for now, preferring to savor it once they've moved past upsetting topics.
"So the question is indeed about whether you have a soul," Satoru says, voice quiet. He'd guessed as much, but Fel has now confirmed it. "All right, answer me this. So you told me--if I remember correctly--that Exos were built to house human brains, but also that Exos have no organic parts. Therefore, a human brain has to be ... scanned? In order to be uploaded into Exo hardware? So that begs the question--and this is a popular topic in fiction about transhumanism--is the human soul transmitted in that process? And even if it is, you're something different, so ..." Satoru's brilliant, tactical mind follows the logic and connects the dots: If Fel had also existed in a separate body, maybe as an alien entity, and been transferred into the android chassis, then he could be assumed to have as much as a soul as the humans who were transferred. In which case they'd be discussing what happens to a soul, not what the nature of a soul is. But Fel doesn't talk like the question of the transmission--or resurrection--is relevant at all. It's not why he's asking.
"Because you weren't transmitted from some other body," Satoru concludes, quiet but certain, gaze steady on Fel's face. "You weren't ever something else. You were created an Exo." He's pretty sure that implies an AI, and yet he doesn't feel fully confident that he understands Exo technology or magic enough to fix the concept on robot brain. A created entity, whatever that means for Exos. "If we assume that humans have souls by default, then you have some doubts as to whether the process that created you included the creation of a soul."
Felwinter waits in silence while Gojo works through the logic puzzle that is his existence. For the second time. And it's only because that first time Gojo had been so unconcerned about him not being human that he feels comfortable speaking to him about this at all.
And there it is. He lifts his head to meet Gojo's eyes, in defiance of the terrible, deep-rooted fear that shudders through his frame. His fingers twitch against the teacup like they're desperate to reach for a weapon, or for his Light. But there's no need for that, he tells himself. Not here, not now. Not with Satoru. He has to allow himself to trust.
It's difficult.
"An AI created by an AI," he says finally, and even his usually flat tone seems taut. "I don't think there's any question of me having a soul."
After all, Aodh had said as much, hadn't he? There was no hiding it from someone who could see souls. But Aodh had claimed he also had no soul, and yet he was flesh and blood. He lived and breathed. So what is the point of them? What difference do they make?
Felwinter looks away.
"But what does that mean, in the end? Is a soul necessary? Does it matter whether someone has one or not?"
Felwinter's so naturally still and inexpressive that the tremor in his hands seems enormous, vastly betraying how much the topic upsets him. But it doesn't even occur to Satoru that Felwinter feels violently defensive about it, and even if he did, it wouldn't matter. Satoru trusts him and feels safe with him, and even if Felwinter lost control, it still wouldn't be any danger to Satoru. His Infinity defense defaults to being on, even when he sleeps. It is always an active choice for him to allow anyone to lay a finger on him.
"If you think there's no question of you having a soul, then your logical premise for this question is faulty," Satoru argues indignantly, wanting to fight whoever left Felwinter feeling inferior like this. Which might be all of Karteria, sure, but it didn't start with them.
"Listen." Satoru lifts a finger, trying to get Fel's attention to return to him. "I think the premise is faulty, but of the ... more plausible premises for what is meant by a 'soul', given this additional context for the question, I genuinely do not believe there is any relevant difference between the two of us. Look at me." He points that finger toward his own face. Fortunately he's not in the habit of wearing his blindfold or glasses within their home, so his dazzling blue eyes are bare. "The definitional question that I started with remains relevant, but I do not believe that the soul is breath. That's poetic bullshit. If the soul is the body, then my soul consists of muscle memory, neural pathways, and electrical impulses, which cannot possibly be very different from your data memory, wires, and electrical impulses. It's the definition by which soul is consciousness, and the structural layout of the body is irrelevant if it results in both cases with an intelligent consciousness capable of logic and emotions.
"If the soul is separate from the body, dualism, then I reiterate my point that whatever part of us was brought here--whatever part of you was resurrected by your ghost--is the immortal soul. My consciousness was brought here same as yours. And I don't have any memory of dying, unlike some people here, so who the fuck knows how your Final Death fits in or doesn't.
"But thirdly, interestingly," Satoru tips his neck and taps the spot where the Natural Souls were installed. "If the definition on these 'Natural Souls' is correct, if they are souls, then it's critically relevant that some of us are rocks. There are Augmented with plant souls and some with rock souls, Fel. Now, in Japanese Shintoism, we believe in an animistic view of the world, which is to say that it seems perfectly normal to me that rocks have souls. Everything has a soul, potentially. But if we follow that to its logical conclusion and, say, suppose that it is the pure element of a thing that has a soul, then your components may actually consist of multiple souls. Which is fine because if rocks have souls, then my body's bacteria and other microorganisms also can be assumed to have souls, so I am also, therefore, a conglomerate of souls.
"In conclusion," Satoru says, leaning back and reaching for his cake. "The question is based upon a bullshit premise but all the relevant possibilities logically extrapolate to us both having whatever the fuck a 'soul' is." He gestures between the two of them with his fork. "But it's fine if you wanna believe that I'm cooler for having more souls because humans contain, like, billions of microorganisms? Which is still weird to think about."
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no subject
Brightening as he's offered cake, Satoru accepts the plate happily, shifting to sit cross-legged so that he can sit forward and pay attention while he eats. The Kelesian tea is better, though it's still terrible, and Satoru comments as much. He never thought of himself as having strong opinions on tea, but that was because he comes from a tea-growing country. Most of the time he could just count on having access to good tea, wherever he went. Karterian tea is horrible.
Fel's question is an interesting one, and Satoru makes a thoughtful noise as he considers it. He sets down his plate for a moment, lost in thought, and starts to cross his arms--but only one arm goes across. The other hand reaches up for his own throat, some kind of subconscious motion, maybe self-soothing. His hand tightens--squeezes hard--and then he realizes what he's doing and drops both hands immediately back into his lap.
"Hm. Interesting question. A significant portion of it is a matter of definition. Different cultures define that in different ways. The ancient Greeks--do you know Greek? Do you know English? Never mind. Irrelevant. The word ... spiros, I think? The root part of it is spir, anyway, and it shows up in a huge amount of English words." Satoru being a Greek nerd who speaks English. "Spirit, aspire, inspire--it means breath. This is the case for a lot of--especially ancient--cultures. The soul is the breath, and the soul left the body with the final exhale."
He leans forward, raps a knuckle against Fel's breathless chest, willing to bet that this is the actual root of his boyfriend's question.
"By which definition, babe, sorry, you're out. But." He lifts a finger. This lecture is far from over. "There's a concept in Japanese philosophy which is called shin-jin ichinyo, literally meaning 'mind and body as one.' Instead of the dualism of Western philosophy, where consciousness is seen as something separate from the body, shin-jin ichinyo posits that the soul is the body, and the body is the soul. Your thoughts, feelings, and identity exist not just in the mind or heart, but throughout your body. The body shapes the soul as much as the soul shapes the body."
Sorry if you didn't want the entire lecture, Fel, because you're getting it. "Shortly before coming here, I encountered two curses with relevant abilities. One of them--and this one I got the explanation second-hand from my student--posited that the soul existed before the body and the body was formed according to the ... blueprint, I suppose, of the soul. So that this curse could manipulate the shape of the body by warping the victim's soul. However, the other curse had an ability that seemed to conflict with that, wherein the memories, emotions, abilities and instincts of the body remained within the body even after the curse had removed the brain, implying--as with shin-jin ichinyo--that the soul was infused throughout the body.
"But I really wanted to slaughter both of them, they were assholes, so let's not dwell on them too much." Satoru wrinkles his nose, but he finally takes enough of a breath to reach for his tea, though he doesn't yet resume drinking it. He thinks back to what Fel had told him--human brains were installed in 'Exo' bodies, but also that Exos had no organic parts. It was not the physical brain inside the metal chassis. "What I think is most relevant in our current circumstance is the question of the immortal soul, which is generally the aspect of a person which passes to the afterlife while the mortal body is left behind. In Buddhism, this is the part which reincarnates into a new body and a new existence, but is still considered to be the same person, and who often will recognize, resonate with, and share threads of fate with other souls who it has encountered in previous lives.
"Given that I strongly theorize--as previously discussed--that the Augmented are all dead and this may very well be an afterlife, then," he points a finger back and forth between Fel and himself. "We are our souls. I am much more confident in the belief that my soul exists here in this place than I am in my belief that this is my original body that was transferred here. Which would also explain the loss of so many of my powers, but that's a different topic. Would you agree with that premise? How confident are you that you are the Felwinter who died in that battle, and, separately, how confident are you that that is the same body--chassis?--that was damaged in that battle? My opinion and belief is that the very fact that you are here is proof that you have just as much of a soul as I do."
cw: suicide mention
"When a Lightbearer dies, our Ghost recreates our body from scratch. You can't heal a body which has been crushed or incinerated or disintegrated," he shakes his head slowly. "Sometimes my Ghost found it easier to start over even with lesser wounds. Exos are... complex. Difficult to fix. So she'd have me shoot myself. I've died more times than I can count. We had to be dead in order to become Lightbearers at all.
"But I don't remember dying before I came here. Not in the way you mean. Not my Final Death. If my Ghost were dead, my Light would be gone, and as long as my Ghost is alive..."
She could, theoretically, bring him back again. Even if it was only to a situation from which there was no escape. A death he knows is coming whether it has already or not. None of them were walking out of that bunker alive.
"To answer your question: Whether this is the same body or not means very little for me."
It's also not really the point, but that's... Well, he's not entirely sure how to bring it up.
no subject
He sets his cake aside for now, preferring to savor it once they've moved past upsetting topics.
"So the question is indeed about whether you have a soul," Satoru says, voice quiet. He'd guessed as much, but Fel has now confirmed it. "All right, answer me this. So you told me--if I remember correctly--that Exos were built to house human brains, but also that Exos have no organic parts. Therefore, a human brain has to be ... scanned? In order to be uploaded into Exo hardware? So that begs the question--and this is a popular topic in fiction about transhumanism--is the human soul transmitted in that process? And even if it is, you're something different, so ..." Satoru's brilliant, tactical mind follows the logic and connects the dots: If Fel had also existed in a separate body, maybe as an alien entity, and been transferred into the android chassis, then he could be assumed to have as much as a soul as the humans who were transferred. In which case they'd be discussing what happens to a soul, not what the nature of a soul is. But Fel doesn't talk like the question of the transmission--or resurrection--is relevant at all. It's not why he's asking.
"Because you weren't transmitted from some other body," Satoru concludes, quiet but certain, gaze steady on Fel's face. "You weren't ever something else. You were created an Exo." He's pretty sure that implies an AI, and yet he doesn't feel fully confident that he understands Exo technology or magic enough to fix the concept on robot brain. A created entity, whatever that means for Exos. "If we assume that humans have souls by default, then you have some doubts as to whether the process that created you included the creation of a soul."
no subject
And there it is. He lifts his head to meet Gojo's eyes, in defiance of the terrible, deep-rooted fear that shudders through his frame. His fingers twitch against the teacup like they're desperate to reach for a weapon, or for his Light. But there's no need for that, he tells himself. Not here, not now. Not with Satoru. He has to allow himself to trust.
It's difficult.
"An AI created by an AI," he says finally, and even his usually flat tone seems taut. "I don't think there's any question of me having a soul."
After all, Aodh had said as much, hadn't he? There was no hiding it from someone who could see souls. But Aodh had claimed he also had no soul, and yet he was flesh and blood. He lived and breathed. So what is the point of them? What difference do they make?
Felwinter looks away.
"But what does that mean, in the end? Is a soul necessary? Does it matter whether someone has one or not?"
no subject
"If you think there's no question of you having a soul, then your logical premise for this question is faulty," Satoru argues indignantly, wanting to fight whoever left Felwinter feeling inferior like this. Which might be all of Karteria, sure, but it didn't start with them.
"Listen." Satoru lifts a finger, trying to get Fel's attention to return to him. "I think the premise is faulty, but of the ... more plausible premises for what is meant by a 'soul', given this additional context for the question, I genuinely do not believe there is any relevant difference between the two of us. Look at me." He points that finger toward his own face. Fortunately he's not in the habit of wearing his blindfold or glasses within their home, so his dazzling blue eyes are bare. "The definitional question that I started with remains relevant, but I do not believe that the soul is breath. That's poetic bullshit. If the soul is the body, then my soul consists of muscle memory, neural pathways, and electrical impulses, which cannot possibly be very different from your data memory, wires, and electrical impulses. It's the definition by which soul is consciousness, and the structural layout of the body is irrelevant if it results in both cases with an intelligent consciousness capable of logic and emotions.
"If the soul is separate from the body, dualism, then I reiterate my point that whatever part of us was brought here--whatever part of you was resurrected by your ghost--is the immortal soul. My consciousness was brought here same as yours. And I don't have any memory of dying, unlike some people here, so who the fuck knows how your Final Death fits in or doesn't.
"But thirdly, interestingly," Satoru tips his neck and taps the spot where the Natural Souls were installed. "If the definition on these 'Natural Souls' is correct, if they are souls, then it's critically relevant that some of us are rocks. There are Augmented with plant souls and some with rock souls, Fel. Now, in Japanese Shintoism, we believe in an animistic view of the world, which is to say that it seems perfectly normal to me that rocks have souls. Everything has a soul, potentially. But if we follow that to its logical conclusion and, say, suppose that it is the pure element of a thing that has a soul, then your components may actually consist of multiple souls. Which is fine because if rocks have souls, then my body's bacteria and other microorganisms also can be assumed to have souls, so I am also, therefore, a conglomerate of souls.
"In conclusion," Satoru says, leaning back and reaching for his cake. "The question is based upon a bullshit premise but all the relevant possibilities logically extrapolate to us both having whatever the fuck a 'soul' is." He gestures between the two of them with his fork. "But it's fine if you wanna believe that I'm cooler for having more souls because humans contain, like, billions of microorganisms? Which is still weird to think about."